Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe [5x]

["nettime's unsubscription mechanism" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>]

Table of Contents:

   RE:  commentary on Unsubscribe text                                             
     "anna balint" <epistolaris@freemail.hu>                                         

   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe                                     
     "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>                      

   Re: Syndicate: FW:  commentary on Unsubscribe text                              
     "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>                                           

   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)              
     "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>                                           

   Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)              
     "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>                      



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:35:24 +0200
From: "anna balint" <epistolaris@freemail.hu>
Subject: RE:  commentary on Unsubscribe text

'Il n'ya plus de centre de l'art.Chaque artiste doit se considérer comme
faisant partie d'un réseau' Robert Filliou - Eternal Network

Dear Ana, folks, auto replyer,

One of the fantastic aspects of the net is the immediate accesibility to
the texts, sources, works, people. One minute search on the web is enough
to acknowledge the context of a text, and find out that the Eternal
Network text was published. One more minute is enough to overcome the
impression that mail art circles were ever closed. For people with
theoretical interest in mailing lists, networks, netart - the net will
probably be a minimum reference. Unfortunately I did not find your text in
the nettime archives, as it is very raw and inefficiently organised.
Contrary to such net archives, mail art archives already developed
archiving, filtering strategies, and methods for organise information. Art
and media concerned BBSs, mailing lists owe a lot to the correspondence
networks and movements, even the mailing list technique was developed in
mail art circles, it goes back to the newsletter of Dick Higgins and the
New York Correspondence School of Ray Johnson. Besides technical aspects,
on the content level even nettime reproduced and interfered with many of
the mail art and fluxus phenomena - intermedia, collaborative work, the
multiples, the anticopyright movement, much of the netart, media art,
visual poetry, copy art, censorship questions, radio art, sound poetry,
fanzines, video art, computer art, alternative music, alternative
galleries, museums, comes from the correspondence art and fluxus. When
about bulky correspondence art materials, many theories and concepts cover
them very well, mail art theories in the first place, but the library of
Borges as well, some notions of Flusser, the palimpsest (of Hakim Bay as
well), heteroglossic forms of Michael Bakhtin - his theory of reverse
culture covers your original text as well - hypertext, and so on. When
about legacy of ideas, would it be a coincidence that one of the
moderators of this list comes form the American Fluxus circles, the other
from the Advancement for the Illegal Knowledge group, the third close to
the Marshall MacLuhan heritage - connected with Fluxus, as Marshall
MacLuhan was first published by Something Else Press? The concepts,
theories, practices and attitudes of the correspondence art infiltrated
not only mailing lists, but contemporary art practices - the call for
artworks and papers for instance, its morality, its rules. The idea, the
illegal knowledge which circulated through postal network on a global
level became much more known and legitimate on a larger scale due to the
net.  Though many things originating in the correspondence art became more
visible, some still wait to be discovered. Topics, methods as well. For
instance correspondence artists adored trash, crab and junk, they very
much explored and recycled it. When about empty places in mailing lists,
the squatters logic works, what's wrong in that? That logic brought up
alternative spaces, alternative radios, alternative tv's, alternative art,
alternative idea.  Nokia is a spammer? Great!  We found out! The Dalai
Lama is spamming? Good that somebody reminds me the question of who the
Dalai Lama is! Integer was banned from the syndicate, nettime, rhizome and
infowar list at the same time? First of all we all learn that these lists
were connected, their moderators control (too much) and they lack humour.
Her messages are overwhelming? Did we know before that messages can mix
private and public, did we know so much about private and public
feed-back, did we question content, language, filtering before? Didn't we
learn something about hidden and visible aspects of the email? Did some
mailing lists die out? Great! New ones come, and we will find out what is
eternal. There is already much said about spatiality of the net, many
people explore utopia and atopia, virtual space, spatiality in general.
Much less is discussed the notion of temporality, though some artists,
theoreticians already struggle with this concept. At this moment my
personal time perceiving is very much determined by the commercial
s/censors of net-works, as the Hungarian Telecomunication Company lets me
to work in the night with less costs.  Robert Filliou did not wait the
raise of the internet to formulate his theories, maybe we still need time,
to properly understand his notion of time with the help of the new medium.
Eternity is a religious notion? Which concept is not? bests regards, Anna
Balint



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:29:30 +0200
From: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe

Dear Ana Peraica,

I hesitate to write this in a way, but on the other hand, maybe it helps
you. If one pans through your Unsubscribe-text, one can not avoid to
notice a certain number of words of hate and anger and so forth. Please do
not light heartedly enclose people, who spent their life with ideas and
beliefs, and over all materialised works, you might not agree to.I mean
leave the Dalai Lama and Robert Filliou out of this first of all. It is so
easy to play with words and so hard to live them. They both did or do.
Robert, a friend of mine for 25 years (he exhibited his last work before
his death in 1988 in our place http://home.snafu.de/ruine-kuenste.berlin),
and the Tibetans, for which I am working since 1980
http://home.snafu.de/ruine-kuenste.berlin/members.htm , they have a
complete different idea of networks on this planet, which cannot be mixed
up with 'your' materialistic one. And it is no argument to disqualify
theirs with a disbelief in the eternal in general, as you propose. Roberts
idea of the Eternal Network is so much wider and philosophical than any
other existing or disappearing network in the net (and other media!) and
so full of humour, that your feelings of a frightening undeliberately
beeing connected situation are just a surfacial misunderstanding. Read
again and not only this text. I invited Robert for example to exhibit his
Research of the Origine here in Berlin in 1974, there is a very good
´catalogue on it published in Düsseldorf and Berlin (Aktionen der
Avanatgarde, ADA, Akademie der Künste Berlin) that year. Read, if you are
interested my text on Roberts (Tibetan buddhist) philosophy, which can be
clearly seen and proven in his works by the one, who know buddhism. (Wolf
Kahlen: Une chose en t´e`te ou piece qui s'effilochent. A propos de
EIND.UN.ONE.... du point de vue bouddhiste de Robert Filliou, in: Robert
Filliou, poet, Galerie der Stadt Remscheid 1997).

 It is the same background as Brancusis, who believed all his life, he was
a reincarnation of Milarepa. Anyway, to make it short. Your connotations
and associations regarding Filliou's network-idea have absolutely nothing
in common with your main issue, the other kind of networking. And by the
way: I had a strange feeling, as if your sewer story was (perfectly
fitting but) invented, it fits more to the mood of the rest of your
words...or am I mistaken? With good wishes Wolf Kahlen

www.wolf-kahlen.de
www.tu-berlin.de/~arch_net_art



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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:50:04 +0200
From: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: Syndicate: FW:  commentary on Unsubscribe text

HI Anna, and others...

I am receiving so much of e-mail reactions.... Unfortunately interesting
writings arrive to my own address, not to lists, and seems the problems of
censorship, moderation et. al. are very hot, at least on two lists
(Syndicate and Nettime the first). Censorship seems to still be the topic
people prefer to discuss in private... I would try to write the reply and
ideas I have got in one single e-mail as replying this would take some
time... (of summer).

For myself, though I didn't want to get involved in the historical
developement of networking, the ideas of creators etc. as my interest was
not at all to point on its artistic or others rhoutes, but to go a step
further, which I found interesting - critique of the network, fallen
promises and end of the hype. For the de/scralisation of it, because of
using only a single way of interpretation (which I tried to avoid more
literally by comparing networks of the veneral diseases, urbanistic ones
et. al) many were not ready.

But in this reply of Anna I found several topics that were of my interest;
bulk e-mail and (self - if taken as an independent body) organization.
Maybe this discussion is now too particular (located) for the theory, but
nevertheless...

Anna wrote:
> Integer was banned from the syndicate, nettime, rhizome and infowar list
at the same time?

As far as I know Syndicate is unmoderated; of course, question is how this
democracy of all-can-post becomes at one point the tiranny of a single
person, and suffers from the reversal of the quality. Two days ago I got
the reply of Andreas as my e-mails were not getting through; and I made a
joke on

>> either seems someone unsubscribed me in real, or there is a censorship
on the Syndicate, but my e-mails (UN-art and >> Unsubscribe texts) are not
passing to the list since yesterday. I checked the archive, and they are
not there too. And I was >> thinking also how to send something entitled
Unsubscribe in the body of message, so I put the starr * before the title,
>> hoping Majordomo will not recognize as a command. But seems a human
agent did... They like to be commanded probably?

Andreas wrote;
> the syndicate has no moderation but admins who help people who are too
lazy  to adjust to the technical rules of
> majordomo to get their stuff on the list.

Michael Benson wrote:

> Maybe, as with nettime, we can make two  lists -- one featuring 8/10ths
posts by whatshername and one without. That
> way people don't have to go to the trouble of filtering out the crap, they
can just freely choose, and meanwhile accusations > of censorship won't have
to be slung so freely around.

Anna wrote:
> First of all we all learn that these  lists were connected. Their
moderators control (too much) and they lack humour - or the > time did not
come when people accept no censorship, no jury rules.

Now, I am again not sure on this point; whether it means connections of
moderators (and then a kind of conspiracy) or the connection of subscribers
/ subscriptions, and then merging of networks... For the first I think it is
totally the opposite, but the second one is the truth.

Anna wrote:
> Didn't we| learn something about hidden and visible aspects of the email?
Did some mailing lists die out? Finally!

That is what i think too.

*******************************
(end that falls out the discussion)

> Eternity is a religious notion? Which concept is not?

I would rather say which one is not political; maybe it is a matter of
interpretation, so I don't quite consume religion, or its notions.

Note; Nokia telephones and Dalai Lama on Life are spams... First one is a
commercial spam, and the second a spiritual one (chain letter that ends up
with a course).

best
Ana






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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:31:35 +0200
From: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note) 

Dear Wolf and others,

| I mean leave the Dalai  Lama

so, I am sending spam bibliography, I thought 'Dalai Lama on life' was
known in net circles... But there are always people that are black holes
in the network. So Wolf - delete message / otherwise bad luck or try to
find the list with subscribers as on the Nettime, and you are happy till
the end of the life : )

Others, sorry for spamming!

ana


 In need of some improvements in your life? If so read on....

  A Message from the Dalai Lama
  Just a short Buddhist outlook on life. Do not keep this message. The
  mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very
  pleasant surprise. This is true, even if you are not superstitious.

 Take into account that great love and great achievements involve
      great risk.

  When you lose don't lose the lesson.

Follow the three R's: Respect for self, Respect for others and
      Responsibility for all your actions.

Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful
      stroke of luck.

Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.

When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to
      correct it.

Spend some time alone every day.

Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think
      back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.

A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current
      situation. Don't bring up the past.

Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.

Be gentle with the earth.

Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for
      each other exceeds your need for each other.

Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.


  FORWARD THIS MANTRA E-MAIL TO AT LEAST 5 PEOPLE AND YOUR LIFE WILL
IMPROVE.

  0-4 people: Your life will improve slightly.
  5-9 people: Your life will improve to your liking.
  9-14 people: You will have at least 5 surprises in the next 3 weeks.
  15 people and above: Your life will improve drastically and everything
      you ever dreamed of will begin to take shape.



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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:15:39 +0200
From: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note) 


Dear Ana,

please make the source of the mentioned Dalai Lama 'chain letter' public,
of course I received such a letter by several people, I just smiled about
the chain method, text itself is good, but to me it does not fit into His
Holiness' way of teaching to give promises like the Popes of Rome at
Luther times, so please open your archive and I am the first to start
tracing the spource and finding out myself and if necessary to apologize.I
must not tell you how easy it is to forge messages in the net, right? By
the way, was it really you writing the last response?

Good wishes Wolf

- -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "ana peraica" <ana.peraica@st.tel.hr>
An: "Ruine der Kuenste Berlin" <ruine-kuenste.berlin@snafu.de>
Cc: "Nettime" <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Juni 2001 17:31
Betreff: Re: <nettime> txt from C-front: Unsubscribe (bibliographical note)


> Dear Wolf and others,
>
> | I mean leave the Dalai  Lama
>
> so, I am sending spam bibliography, I thought 'Dalai Lama on life' was
known
> in net circles


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